Trickster General Discussion

Re: banned

GMRaven — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:54:31 GMT

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Re: banned

vonwolf — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 05:45:23 GMT

>< ok i didn't relize that the slur hit that hard to its target, for i still have no idea of who insults, but then again all i ever hear is latino's calling each other names in spanish and african americans using every variation of the "n" word that they can there is and come up with a few more. what do they call white people crackers and next thing we know that word will be banned form message board even though most of us whites don't care. on a more personal note, i think the whole ethnic thing is just plain racial and i am waiting for someone to go to court to sue them for calling them it.

o and cloudy please use a color that readable when writing a post. if it wasn't for me clicking reply on it; i would have thought you would have just typed nothing............

Re: banned

sparkcaster — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 05:17:32 GMT

Tuvis:
stepmania:

and now it's gotten to this point, where people are afraid to say c**n because they might get banned, where permabans are being handed out on first offense, names being changed regardless of whether or not it's used as a racial slur, etc.
And that's something I think have gotten way to far.

agreed

Re: banned

Tuvis — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 05:12:01 GMT

stepmania:
and now it's gotten to this point, where people are afraid to say c**n because they might get banned, where permabans are being handed out on first offense, names being changed regardless of whether or not it's used as a racial slur, etc.

And that's something I think have gotten way to far.

Re: banned

sparkcaster — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 05:10:26 GMT

stepmania:

this is far from a regular language violation issue
from the beginning, it was not treated as one anyway
some say it's not banned ingame because you wouldn't be able to say raccoon, since c**n is part of raccoon
well what about a$$? without it, you can't say assistant hunter, yet if a GM catches you using it offensively, they take action
and b@st@rd. without it, you can't say b@st@rd sword, but if a GM catches you using it offensively, they take action
the fact that a whole thread had to be made about it, explaining how important it is, with example from real life of a person being banned for the use of the word, etc. makes the ban seem unnecessary
there was no need for an announcement. the c**n language violation issue was already in effect ever since the first day of closed beta. if someone used c**n as a racial slur, then the GMs should take action against him
however, raven's announcement bans ANY use of the word c**n, even if it's not being used as a racial slur (as if it was ever used as a racial slur in trickster anyway)
players like sonyc**n and cutec**n were obviously not using the word offensively, yet they were forced to change their names as if they were used as racial slurs
to me, c**n as a racial slur in trickster was already being taken care of long before raven was a GM. raven made a big mistake when she made that thread.
and now it's gotten to this point, where people are afraid to say c**n because they might get banned, where permabans are being handed out on first offense, names being changed regardless of whether or not it's used as a racial slur, etc.
not that i'm saying it's all anyone's fault
we didn't get to where we are with this issue because of only one person, but here we are

im sorry, but you seem to be missing something...

this whole issue w/ the c-word isnt coming from Raven, or NTREEV.. but rather, theyre going along with a larger idiocy to cover their legal backsides

i say this based on this line, taken from Raven's topic:

Within the last 2 years, Dave Lenihan from NBC was fired for accidentally using the word instead of Coup.

so while i do not agree with the decision, i can understand where it's coming from

its meant to protect them from ppl with tiny brains and high class lawyers, who in this country, could very easily ruin them given the slightest excuse, same reason they have the ToS to begin with

the saddest thing about this, is that they have to take measures like this because of the idiotic times we live in

Re: banned

vonwolf — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 04:39:22 GMT

stepmania:

this is far from a regular language violation issue
from the beginning, it was not treated as one anyway
some say it's not banned ingame because you wouldn't be able to say raccoon, since c**n is part of raccoon
well what about a$$? without it, you can't say assistant hunter, yet if a GM catches you using it offensively, they take action
and b@st@rd. without it, you can't say b@st@rd sword, but if a GM catches you using it offensively, they take action
the fact that a whole thread had to be made about it, explaining how important it is, with example from real life of a person being banned for the use of the word, etc. makes the ban seem unnecessary
there was no need for an announcement. the c**n language violation issue was already in effect ever since the first day of closed beta. if someone used c**n as a racial slur, then the GMs should take action against him
however, raven's announcement bans ANY use of the word c**n, even if it's not being used as a racial slur (as if it was ever used as a racial slur in trickster anyway)
players like sonyc**n and cutec**n were obviously not using the word offensively, yet they were forced to change their names as if they were used as racial slurs
to me, c**n as a racial slur in trickster was already being taken care of long before raven was a GM. raven made a big mistake when she made that thread.
and now it's gotten to this point, where people are afraid to say c**n because they might get banned, where permabans are being handed out on first offense, names being changed regardless of whether or not it's used as a racial slur, etc.
not that i'm saying it's all anyone's fault
we didn't get to where we are with this issue because of only one person, but here we are

ok so its a racial slur, why would anyone care about racial slurs in this game????? hell, everyone looks the same, unless you actually told somebody what you're nationality or ethnicity was, there is no way to actually use such language without getting laughed at then reported for being being a big stupid bigot>.<

Re: banned

stepmania — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 03:05:21 GMT

this is far from a regular language violation issue

from the beginning, it was not treated as one anyway

some say it's not banned ingame because you wouldn't be able to say raccoon, since c**n is part of raccoon

well what about a$$? without it, you can't say assistant hunter, yet if a GM catches you using it offensively, they take action

and b@st@rd. without it, you can't say b@st@rd sword, but if a GM catches you using it offensively, they take action

the fact that a whole thread had to be made about it, explaining how important it is, with example from real life of a person being banned for the use of the word, etc. makes the ban seem unnecessary

there was no need for an announcement. the c**n language violation issue was already in effect ever since the first day of closed beta. if someone used c**n as a racial slur, then the GMs should take action against him

however, raven's announcement bans ANY use of the word c**n, even if it's not being used as a racial slur (as if it was ever used as a racial slur in trickster anyway)

players like sonyc**n and cutec**n were obviously not using the word offensively, yet they were forced to change their names as if they were used as racial slurs

to me, c**n as a racial slur in trickster was already being taken care of long before raven was a GM. raven made a big mistake when she made that thread.

and now it's gotten to this point, where people are afraid to say c**n because they might get banned, where permabans are being handed out on first offense, names being changed regardless of whether or not it's used as a racial slur, etc.
not that i'm saying it's all anyone's fault
we didn't get to where we are with this issue because of only one person, but here we are

Re: banned

sparkcaster — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:53:59 GMT

Damsel:
How about the ones where the parents sued a stroller company because it didn't say "remove baby before collapsing stroller" so they didn't take the baby out, and so it was injured when the parents collapsed the stroller with the child still in it? Yep. Seriously. That lawsuit is the reason strollers have the warning "remove baby before collapsing stroller." (If I was that judge, I'd have taken their child from them, not given them money. >__>)

Bingo

precisely the stupidity im talking about

never heard of that one.. still cant remember what else i was going to cite as an example, but that is a very good one right there

glad it seems my post made some semblance of sense... usually its like im either ignored, or speaking some bizzarre moon-language

Re: banned

Damsel — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:33:44 GMT

sparkcaster:
i look at this like i look at companies that implement mandatory sensitivity training... theyre just covering their legal bases as best they know how
the real problem is the state of society.. ppl sueing over spilled coffee burning their lap.. and winning!? and that was how long ago?? (man i feel old..) ...i forgot my next example... but the point is, the problem didnt start with the GMs, or the corporates at NTREEV, they dont like it any more than we do, but until the world is devoid of idiots who are all to happy to take legal action over trivial matters, nonsensical inconvieniences like this arent going to go away.. if anything theyre going to get worse

How about the ones where the parents sued a stroller company because it didn't say "remove baby before collapsing stroller" so they didn't take the baby out, and so it was injured when the parents collapsed the stroller with the child still in it? Yep. Seriously. That lawsuit is the reason strollers have the warning "remove baby before collapsing stroller." (If I was that judge, I'd have taken their child from them, not given them money. >__>)

Re: banned

sparkcaster — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:27:40 GMT

Damsel:

.__.
....
Friggin' hell....the things I miss....
-watches Corona commercial- Stuff like this sorta makes me wish I was in to alcohol. >__>;;
There is nothing about this situation that sits right with me. What was done was inappropriate, and foolish. Raven may have deleted the thread where Cloudy and I were discussing the "protests" of this....whatever you want to call it. Cloudy showed respect for what I had to say, which I appreciated. Step, I'm surprised you missed that...debate.
Cloudy compared this to the civil rights movement. I found that ironic, and a poor comparison. But going with that metaphor, the people who did the "raid" were following MalcomX instead of Martin Luther King Jr. In this situation, MalcomX got life in prison. Historically, that didn't happen. MalcomX did get arrested--a lot--but not life in prison. So yes, I do find the permaban to be...excessive. Especially since not ALL Step's accounts were banned, since that seems to eliminate an IP ban. Shoulda been all or nothing.
On that note, I'll pull out a little more history. The Black Panthers were viewed as radicals. They were feared, and with good reason. Their actions often did more harm than good, reinforcing the stereotypes and fostering fear and anger. In terms of history, and what worked and what did not... King > MalcomX.
To those who say the logical, peaceful, intelligent debates and disagreements are not effective--where has this been tried and maintained? Some tried it that first day...but a number of people, Step included, turned to spam and filter dodging, and THAT is what got them banned from the forum at that time! Whoever said "show me a case of someone using the c-word as a shortening only getting banned"...I agree with them. I can think of a few people who could make claims of that being the reason, but I am pretty sure there are other reasons. And the people who use them as examples, well...they know there are other reasons too, hence there being no naming of names. I believe it was Step who said there were cases of it happening, but no names were given. I am of the belief this is because if names were named, there could be proof provided of other infractions leading up to the ban.
Perhaps the person mentioned earlier "Cutiec--n" or whatever it was....but where's the proof of that happening? Where's the person that happened to to talk about it? Where's the screen shot evidence that he spoke to Grimm? That he wasn't part of the raid? That his name was the reason for his banning? You can say it all you want, but the only evidence is word of mouth.
Not everyone who made peaceful, logical arguments against the banning of the word got banned. Look at me! I wasn't banned! (Just ignored.)
You can say that the peaceful method won't work, and provide opinionated evidence to support that...but you know what? I can provide more solid proof that the "violent", disruptive method is not working. I'll also point out that the Black Panthers said King's method wasn't good enough. Yet historically, who was more effective? I'll say this much, I learned about King as early as Kindergarten, but never heard of MalcomX until junior year of high school!

I do not think a permaban was fair. Said it already, but want to make sure I'm clear on that. I'm of the belief that he was being made an example of. But I also think the "raid" was highly inappropriate and obviously ineffective. I said it before, but it was deleted: If the GMs rescind this decision now they'll be rewarding bad behavior. They'll be saying that if you disagree with something, spamming, dodging the filter and harassing the GMs will make them do things the way you want. As a company, they can NOT allow that message to be sent.
So congrats, raiders, you've just made it 100% impossible for the word ban to EVER be lifted, and have obviously made the penalty for filter dodging go way, way up.
And to anyone who would say "The word ban wouldn't have been lifted even if we hadn't done what we did!" I say, then what was the point?

*applauds*

all i have to add is this:

i agree the policy is dumb, and the perm-ban unfairly harsh, i disagree with NTREEV's methods, but when you think about it, its not coming from them.. not the GMs, nor management above them...

i look at this like i look at companies that implement mandatory sensitivity training... theyre just covering their legal bases as best they know how

the real problem is the state of society.. ppl sueing over spilled coffee burning their lap.. and winning!? and that was how long ago?? (man i feel old..) ...i forgot my next example... but the point is, the problem didnt start with the GMs, or the corporates at NTREEV, they dont like it any more than we do, but until the world is devoid of idiots who are all to happy to take legal action over trivial matters, nonsensical inconvieniences like this arent going to go away.. if anything theyre going to get worse

and nobody, not GMs, NTREEV, or God himself, can rid the world of all idiots...

again, i agree the policy is dumb, and the perm-ban unfairly harsh, but the state of human society is to blame.. rule of the most eager and able to sue

Re: banned

vonwolf — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 01:47:31 GMT

permaban for a one word afk ok come on. this seems rediculous, might even top the boss system for stupid hypocritical decisions, but then again i am not familiar with how this word is an insult despite 3+ years of previous mmo experience before finding this game (the majority of which was runescape and people there found ways to get around every censure to insult people constantly and create insults until they got silenced which was rare due to lack of mods on f2p) and haven't seen it once.

as for why i think this is hypocritical is because newbies use the word constantly for shorthand and last time i looked at the punishment section for offences they made it sounded like to get perma banned you would have to terrorize gm's over several days with bad language after allready being temporaraly banning once or twice allready not just afk once or choosing as a char name. with it quite possibly being the player's first time doing so.

Re: banned

Damsel — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:59:07 GMT

.__.

....

Friggin' hell....the things I miss....

-watches Corona commercial- Stuff like this sorta makes me wish I was in to alcohol. >__>;;

There is nothing about this situation that sits right with me. What was done was inappropriate, and foolish. Raven may have deleted the thread where Cloudy and I were discussing the "protests" of this....whatever you want to call it. Cloudy showed respect for what I had to say, which I appreciated. Step, I'm surprised you missed that...debate.

Cloudy compared this to the civil rights movement. I found that ironic, and a poor comparison. But going with that metaphor, the people who did the "raid" were following MalcomX instead of Martin Luther King Jr. In this situation, MalcomX got life in prison. Historically, that didn't happen. MalcomX did get arrested--a lot--but not life in prison. So yes, I do find the permaban to be...excessive. Especially since not ALL Step's accounts were banned, since that seems to eliminate an IP ban. Shoulda been all or nothing.

On that note, I'll pull out a little more history. The Black Panthers were viewed as radicals. They were feared, and with good reason. Their actions often did more harm than good, reinforcing the stereotypes and fostering fear and anger. In terms of history, and what worked and what did not... King > MalcomX.

To those who say the logical, peaceful, intelligent debates and disagreements are not effective--where has this been tried and maintained? Some tried it that first day...but a number of people, Step included, turned to spam and filter dodging, and THAT is what got them banned from the forum at that time! Whoever said "show me a case of someone using the c-word as a shortening only getting banned"...I agree with them. I can think of a few people who could make claims of that being the reason, but I am pretty sure there are other reasons. And the people who use them as examples, well...they know there are other reasons too, hence there being no naming of names. I believe it was Step who said there were cases of it happening, but no names were given. I am of the belief this is because if names were named, there could be proof provided of other infractions leading up to the ban.

Perhaps the person mentioned earlier "Cutiec--n" or whatever it was....but where's the proof of that happening? Where's the person that happened to to talk about it? Where's the screen shot evidence that he spoke to Grimm? That he wasn't part of the raid? That his name was the reason for his banning? You can say it all you want, but the only evidence is word of mouth.

Not everyone who made peaceful, logical arguments against the banning of the word got banned. Look at me! I wasn't banned! (Just ignored.)

You can say that the peaceful method won't work, and provide opinionated evidence to support that...but you know what? I can provide more solid proof that the "violent", disruptive method is not working. I'll also point out that the Black Panthers said King's method wasn't good enough. Yet historically, who was more effective? I'll say this much, I learned about King as early as Kindergarten, but never heard of MalcomX until junior year of high school!

I do not think a permaban was fair. Said it already, but want to make sure I'm clear on that. I'm of the belief that he was being made an example of. But I also think the "raid" was highly inappropriate and obviously ineffective. I said it before, but it was deleted: If the GMs rescind this decision now they'll be rewarding bad behavior. They'll be saying that if you disagree with something, spamming, dodging the filter and harassing the GMs will make them do things the way you want. As a company, they can NOT allow that message to be sent.

So congrats, raiders, you've just made it 100% impossible for the word ban to EVER be lifted, and have obviously made the penalty for filter dodging go way, way up.

And to anyone who would say "The word ban wouldn't have been lifted even if we hadn't done what we did!" I say, then what was the point?

Re: banned

stepmania — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:00:40 GMT

i don't expect them to make the next move

i will talk to a GM in game when i get the chance

this whole thing really has been blown out of proportion

Re: banned

scopfragger — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:57:57 GMT

I think its realy ntreevs move.

Let the wating game beguin i suppose

Re: banned

stepmania — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:53:31 GMT

hhmmmm...if it works like that, then i guess it is an official rule, since raven says so

anyway, what's done is done and we should focus on what happens next