Patch Notes 06/24/2009

Kryptas replied on 06-25-2009 8:17 PM | Locked

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tonycheese:

oh and, we can't ask for bought instead of spent, since ntreev publishes mutiple games. theoretically, someone who mostly plays trickster could just make a pangya account and start cashing in on scratch cards. not really reasonable...

Not really, this already happens to an extent. I play GC and Trickster. When I charge using a prepaid Ntreev $25 card, I get an Umbral Seraph Accessory set timed 15 days in GC and an Angel Exchange Coupon in Trickster.

GMLoki:

Just a quick note on this one, we want to be able to reward people for putting their Ntreev Points into Pangya and we actually don't have any way of distinguishing whether or not you are buying points *just* for Pangya.  Right now, Ntreev Soft is only publishing Pangya themselves, but Ntreev USA publishes Pangya, Grand Chase and Trickster Online.

This itself is another reason why adopting the system korea uses could never be the *same*.

pokota replied on 06-25-2009 8:34 PM | Locked

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I mostly agree with the points CuroNero brought up, except for the frequency. I'd wish no less than 2 weeks apart on the sets, possibly 3 weeks or a month. Even with us being behind, if they were weekly even the rich among us would be heading to the bank too frequently.

I do agree w/the 500 point idea for buying them as well, it would still mean 4 per 1k if 2 were given for every 1k as proposed.

And do try to include Lucia in the complete sets as well, otherwise it makes for some very strange combos later.

Selinya replied on 06-25-2009 9:06 PM | Locked

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In response to GMLoki's and Failstar's post on page 13 I've gathed the following between myself and a few other players. I would like to thank SpyKibs, Saitosan87, and Sandgolem. Between the four of us we were the team involved with Into The Rough podcast, and I am the owner of Tiki's SpellBook.

This article contains:

• Explanation of each system
• The Pros and Cons of each
• How this stands as a business standpoint
• Personal experiences with Mr. eCard
• Possible estimations on rates
• Why we disagree with the system
• Lastly the affect it will have on your audience

If this doesn't provide ample feedback then I suppose this was futile, but please pass the following on and educate newer users as well as yourself by reading. Thank you.

Alright, I’ll keep this in as much of an unbiased way, possible as well as try to provide critiques, if I haven’t yet in my previous post.

A basic explanation of the previous system would be something like this; Players had to buy their cards in the shop, $50.00 dollars worth of Astros, which is the currency for money from the previous publishers, gave users around 200 eCards. Near the end of their lifespan they added eCard bundles, which gave us extra cards for buying in bulk. To keep my point as fair as possible, let’s disregard the bundle packs for now, as the bonuses changed depending on bundle you purchased. Instead, let us keep in mind that $50.00 USD gave a player 200 tries at Mr. eCard.

In this new system, for those seeking Scratch Cards, the only way to earn them is to spend Ntreev Points. Specifically speaking, if you want solely the Scratch Card a player is forced to receive something else before they can get the card. For every 1,000 points that you spend you obtain one card. In this system $50.00 USD will only get you 50 cards.

Before I get into the pros and cons let me tell you a bit about my experiences with "Mr. eCard". I ran a video series on YouTube that documented my odds of winning. The purpose of this was to figure out the actual needed tries it took, on average, to receive a rare. I did ten whole videos, spending money all the while to achieve this. Lilboyboy took the numbers discovered in this video series and used advanced math to acquire a rough average (please refer here to see the math they did). It was estimated that it would take anywhere from 47 to a 113 attempts to receive a rare. Obviously there are other variables here since how the eCard system works has been discovered and released by the original Ntreev developers.

The system is as follows, for anyone who does not know, if you do then skip ahead two paragraphs:
The eCard rates don't run on a percentage chance, where every scratch gives you, say, a 5% chance of winning, but instead uses a system where there is a randomly generated number, we assume it's between 50 and 150, a broad spectrum, but it's impossible to get a decent grasp on it. What happens is the server counts how many ecards are scratched globally, and once the number of cards has been reached the final card that is scratched wins the rare.

Let's say the number is 150, if I am the only person on the server scratching for eCard rares it will take me exactly 150 ecards to win the rare. If there is another person scratching with me it will take less eCards on either of our part, one will more than likely be scratching faster than another, so they may end up winning the rare, but that also means that your chance of winning a rare has dropped from 100% to 50%, and it's now the luck of the draw, this system is actually far more random than any computer based randomizer, as even random generated numbers from computers are still generated from a seed. Relying on multiple user input makes it much harder to figure out the system.

Now, let’s assume that I was able to receive a rare in 47 tries as by the math above. This would equal to roughly 235 Astros from OGPlanet, which in turn would equal a little over $10 USD (though in all fairness you would have to buy 400 Astros to achieve 235 as they only offer a 200 package at ten; so the real total would be $20.00 USD). However, with NtreevUSA’s system I am spending $47.00 USD on the lowest average chance possible, without including the factors of others scratching.

From my own experience, spending $50.00 USD on 50 Scratch Cards literally is not enough chances. This is solely opinionated, but since it has already stated the odds are the same as Korea then I am confident this is not enough. The rates to OGPlanet’s Albatross 18 in comparison to Korean Pangya were never released, but many assumed that they were even lower than Albatross, which in turn is even more difficult to swallow.

Though looking at the two systems here is a basic pro and con break down:

OGPlanet:

• Con: You have to pay for the card in the shop. This way the Scratch Card becomes optional and there is a choice to buy it. While you are not receiving the item as a bonus, players can decide if they wish to go straight to the card or not.

• Pro: The rates are higher than Korean Pangya, and as such are higher than Ntreev’s Pangya. This is rumored, so this could easily be left out, even though it is a major pro and makes it easier to win.

• Pro/Con: The rares are in Mr. eCard system for a set amount of time so players are aware when they will leave. They also come together as a whole set instead of mix and matched, though the latter of this can be considered good or bad depending on personal opinion.
  
  • A whole set is nice solely because you don’t need to expect the next one later. For example: You wanted Arin’s Wedding Dress outfit, but with the mix and match system you were unable to get it due to the release only being Cecelia’s. As such, you will not know when Arin’s dress will pop up while Cecilia fans already have received their item. And the opposite spectrum is this could single out items you want. For example: Using the mix and match system, a player is going for Kaz’s SSAF and in the current set is Kaz’s SSAF, Arin’s Elf Ears, and Big Papel. The player already has Arin’s Elf Ears and Big Papel from before, so to go for Kaz’s SSAF is a sure fire win.

• Pro: They are four times cheaper than NtreevUSA’s method.

• Con: You cannot trade the item and are stuck with whatever you won. I would like to add, however that many complaints were filed under OGP and they did semi-annually, offer an eCard exchange event, where you could switch out one ecard rare for another, but this was limited to only one rare, and the same set, I.E. Cecelia's SSAF for Arin's, you could not trade an Elf Ears for a Power ring, etc.

NtreevUSA:

• Pro: You receive the card when you spend Ntreev Points, so you are buying items you want, and getting ecards for free.

• Con: The above method actually argues directly with those who solely want the cards themselves. As stated in one of my earlier posts, when a player is at the Amateur rank, they can make any item they might find useful in Brie’s/Caddie’s Cauldron as well as win those type of items when losing at the Scratch Card system. Kryptas made a good point by stating the following: “There's been data collected and on average, it takes 80-150 at the current rates set to get a rare. That's 80,000 to 150,000 points. On the high side, that's 25,000 time boosters or 5,000 special comets or 15,000 auto-calipers. There's plenty of us who do not care at all for these items...ESPECIALLY at those insane quantities.” Which is pretty much true for more experienced players.

• Pro: This is a system that is easier for new players to receive Scratch Cards or rares, but whether they stick with Pangya and whatever rare they win goes to waste is also another factor to tack on.

• Con: Despite receiving the cards as a “free” gift, there is no way to directly get them. It is not Season 4 yet so we do not have the Treasure Points system, and they are not offered in the store.

• Con: You cannot trade the item and are stuck with whatever you want. (?) This in fact can change in the transition to Season 4, but we'll avoid this argument right now, seeing as the shops are disabled for the time being...

You can examine each system your own, but the main thing to consider is the following: For about four years people were accustomed to OGPlanet and that server. NtreevUSA offered out of the kindness of their hearts to transfer all of those accounts, as such the majority of NtreevUSA is filled with players from the past four years who are used to the pervious system (the same people who do not see the cards as free, any other way to access them, etc). Since that is more than likely NtreevUSA’s biggest audience, it should be considered that, as they are OGP's "leftovers" there's a good chance they had been willing to put up with OGP's eCard system, and they are generally likely to go for the scratch cards, unlike new users who probably won’t go to the Scratch Cards right away. Since the older players are more established, and have certainly shown they want to stay, wouldn’t that be a wiser audience to cater, too? Obviously no one should be left out, but the faithful audience will soon become fed up with the price, rates, and way of receiving a card… thus, eventually, they will leave the game. Most of all, this takes away your already established highest paying customers.

I think from a business standpoint this is the easiest way to break it down for the original developers. While this new system is more expensive, if users leave they will be losing money.

It should be noted that Pangya is a free online game. Most games where you have to pay for a subscription cost roughly $200.00 USD a year. A good deal of Pangya players will pay $200.00 a month for a single eCard rare, giving more money to the publishers and developers than a subscription service. Though, since we’ve previously gone over the change in Scratch Card cost, we know that the pervious $200.00 might now be $800.00 USD. No one will pay close to a thousand a month, and very slowly it appears to me the eCard system will die out.

People will always try as long as the system is there, because it is addicting, and it is akin to gambling. Regardless, more established players will become fed up after they’ve played the pervious version, as well as pass the word of mouth around to others not to try it. Pangya is a game that survives on word of mouth for new users, at least in the past, so it is fair to assume that, as of now, it is the only way the game is actually surviving. If your biggest audience is unhappy and begins to turn away from your game, then they will tell their friends on the game, their friends in real life, their blog, etc. You guys are still in beta, you don’t want bad publicity from the start.

Though, if you have any concerns as to why the Scratch Card system will cause so much turmoil, it is mainly because it deals with large amounts of money and luck. To make the most money you will want to give your players a chance, while still luring them in for more. To increase the card price, and yet leave the rates will lend itself to a suspicion that the people working on the game solely want more money, and don't honestly care about the game or its users. When people figure this out they easily find other places to spend their money.

I feel I’ve covered everything, so I’ll leave this thread for now. If this isn’t thorough enough then I don’t know what is. Also, if anyone has any questions I'll try and respond or comment on my profile. Thank you.

Kibs would also like to add that we do understand that you all are new to this, and that you may not have actually done any research on the prices of things, but it also does not help that the GMs, for the most part, have seemed rather apathetic about people's concerns when it comes to the inane prices that have befallen us, and at times seem to tell us to "chill out and just go with the flow", as though they expect us to just sit back and do nothing about it. The Pangya community is a very vocal one, and they do not sit well when they feel they're being treated unfairly, or ripped off. But all things considered, even though OGP was bad with handling hackers, updates, customer relations, and even general fairness, I can still honestly say I preferred their service over this.

StarDrop replied on 06-25-2009 9:09 PM | Locked

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Ok ide just like to say that i know u guys r trying to make pangyaUSA "similar" to pangyaKR but to be truethful it not gunu get u anywhere. if u want to make a half decent server than here are two options

1- make it identical (with small diferences)

2-spend some time thinking abought ur system! will u get hundreds of complants and loose lots of money? will it get u loads of complaments and thousnds of dollors? will it make players want to play ur game?

if u make good updates ull make money. if u make money u can get better things like better GameGuard like  things. if u get better security  then less hackers. and less hackers makes ur players happy

so think about that

KnightofSix replied on 06-25-2009 9:58 PM | Locked

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My biggest suggestions would be:

• If the powers that be are really set on this "free ticket for spending points on items in the shop," then go ahead and keep that way, but simply add the tickets themselves in the shop too.  You reward people for spending points on Pangya and people get to use their money as they want to buy only tickets.
• Do not mix and match the sets.  I am not sure if this was done to start re-releasing rares (which I am not trilled with either), but having all the rares from the same set is the best idea.  Mixing them in random sets of 3 will take forever to recycle through.  I can't really articulate why keeping the sets all together is better, but it just seems logical.
• Do not put all 8 (eventually 9) character sets in the same Scratchy card set, keep it 4-5 like everyone else.  This will lower the risk of getting a rare for a character one does not have. (The Elfen Ears and Fairy Wings have been the only expections to this on the other servers)
• Change the sets at most once a month (you have to give people a chance to build up their 'spending cash' for the game).  When you bleed something you don't go for a massive amount a blood right away that could inhibit the person, you take it slowly and over time since the body can make more.  Same with money.

That's it right now.

GMLoki replied on 06-26-2009 12:04 AM | Locked

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Selinya (and all her contributors) put together a great post, I truly thank you for taking the time to make that feedback.

For those keeping score at home though, I do have to dispel one myth.  I was quiet about it before, because our Scratchy Card system wasn't out yet and the details weren't finalized, but now it is out and the developers have confirmed to us how it works.

Acquiring a Scratchy Card rare is a random chance, independent of what the rest of the people on the server are doing.  So mechanically, it works just like Papel Shop, but the rate of acquiring a rare is of course higher.

Practically speaking, this doesn't change a whole lot about the feedback, which is mainly centered around the cost and distribution of the cards, and the availability of the sets in the system.  I just had to throw that out there because I've been reading an increasing number of posts from players who are claiming a dependent trial system as fact.

From Ryugen

Kryptas replied on 06-26-2009 12:25 AM | Locked

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GMLoki:

Selinya (and all her contributors) put together a great post

Agreed. I appreciate the effort and time you put into writing that. You did a big favor to all of us who want scratchy cards in the store. :D

SpyKibs replied on 06-26-2009 1:26 AM | Locked

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GMLoki:

Acquiring a Scratchy Card rare is a random chance, independent of what the rest of the people on the server are doing.  So mechanically, it works just like Papel Shop, but the rate of acquiring a rare is of course higher.

But I hate to disagree with you, but that information we'd received about the eCard.or I'm sorry "scratchy card" rates came directly from NTreev. Now they may have changed things for the transfer over to the US, but I doubt they'd want to reprogram. Honestly the best way we could find out is if I got a good hard look at the source code for the game, but since that wouldn't really be possible, and the rates really are irrelevant to this specific issue, we'll forgo that. Unless you really think you can get that for me.

Also, on a side note, Loki, your sig gives me headaches @_@

Pangya news, if it could be called that

lVliyuki replied on 06-26-2009 2:18 AM | Locked

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I hope Loki will read and answer this... again. If he is allowed to answer!

In Season 4 you can get Scratchy cards and 1/10 Cards from the Treasure chest feature(you can also win nice cookie items) and from papel shop(if you see one, you will 100% get it). Will we have this too? I guess you may end up with ~5 cards a month just from playing. This way everyone has a chance to get a rare rare and not just $ spending players.

But if you ask me, the release of the scratchy cards should have come with the release of Season 4. In S4 you can spend your money on new things like upgrading cards and self-design clothes and you dont have to spend your $ on 'useless' stuff to get scratchy cards.

Miraglyth replied on 06-26-2009 2:43 AM | Locked

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SpyKibs:

But I hate to disagree with you, but that information we'd received about the eCard.or I'm sorry "scratchy card" rates came directly from NTreev. Now they may have changed things for the transfer over to the US, but I doubt they'd want to reprogram.

I'm actually pretty sure that then-e-Card rates were independent even in Albatross18. I know it was noted in the past that our previous version didn't use the same "until play #x" method that Korea does.

Pecche replied on 06-26-2009 4:24 AM | Locked

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Kryptas:

GMLoki:

Selinya (and all her contributors) put together a great post

Agreed. I appreciate the effort and time you put into writing that. You did a big favor to all of us who want scratchy cards in the store. :D

Same here. Selinya's post has my full support!

WnSandsBabe replied on 06-26-2009 7:26 AM | Locked

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Selinya:

In response to GMLoki's and Failstar's post on page 13 I've gathed the following between myself and a few other players. I would like to thank SpyKibs, Saitosan87, and Sandgolem. Between the four of us we were the team involved with Into The Rough podcast, and I am the owner of Tiki's SpellBook.

This article contains:

• Explanation of each system
• The Pros and Cons of each
• How this stands as a business standpoint
• Personal experiences with Mr. eCard
• Possible estimations on rates
• Why we disagree with the system
• Lastly the affect it will have on your audience

 

Love Tiki's spellbook btw....

I also wanted to thank you and your team for the great post.... I wanted to know if you could possibly do something like this to help out with the papel shop issue thread. Your post of pros and cons etc is very powerful and is just the thing we need to get our point across regarding the papel shop odds.

OMG!!! PangYa is near!!!

CuoReNeRo replied on 06-26-2009 9:45 AM | Locked

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WnSandsBabe:

Love Tiki's spellbook btw....

I also wanted to thank you and your team for the great post.... I wanted to know if you could possibly do something like this to help out with the papel shop issue thread. Your post of pros and cons etc is very powerful and is just the thing we need to get our point across regarding the papel shop odds.

How can't i agree with you in this?

So, after some feedback, are GMs thinking to review something, or you need more feedback?

Failstar replied on 06-26-2009 10:26 AM | Locked

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CuoReNeRo:

How can't i agree with you in this?

So, after some feedback, are GMs thinking to review something, or you need more feedback?

Remember, the GMs are not the ones directly responsible for the decision, they're just relaying the facts to the development team.

And it was a very well written article.

Selinya replied on 06-26-2009 12:11 PM | Locked

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Thanks everything in support! I hope this type of feedback can be presented to the developers.

As for the Papel Shop problem, I will try and do a similiar write up, but it should be noted I'm leaving town for a week for AX. So I'll try and work on it in my spare time there or when I return. Thanks again everyone!