Okay before I start, I made this out of a bit of frustration. There are three main problems I want to address before I get into the core of the guide.
Knock downs - In dungeons, knocking down monsters with the end of your combo makes things take much longer than they should. It is also annoying when some one rushes into a teammate’s monster, knocks it down, and then rushes off to another monster. It's actually pretty rude. When you knock down a monster, not only do they have invincibility as they get up, but many have recovery attacks. Not knocking a monster down eliminates those, and gives you a constant string of attacks that leave the monster unable to counter attack. I'll get into comboing later, but it is sufficed to say that knocking monsters down is only worth it when they are near death.
Juggling -Juggling is a great when to do damage and keep yourself safe, but it's not always the best option. This is mainly a problem with Mages and Spear Maidens ( =P ). When you are in a group and they are hacking away at a monster; rushing in and popping the monster in the air can catch your teammates off guard, resulting in a failed or messed up juggle and a knocked down enemy, which lengthens the life of the monster. Spamming your juggles is not the correct we to juggle. Time them and set them up for your teammates. If you're alone, spamming juggles is just fine; you won't be in anyone's way.
Specials - If you can't tell when some one is about to use their special, which means two things: You suck or they are really good at charging. For most, it is pretty obvious when they are about to use their specials. The problem is that when you know they are, you knock the monster out of the range of the special. An example would be Kavanan Strike. Many times, while Kanavan strike is being done and before the ice spikes shoot up, monsters are smacked out of the AoE. Not only is that a waste of a 3 bar, but a pissed off teammate too. If you are fighting something and a special is about to be released on it, stop and make sure the monster is within range. Or better yet, hit the monster into the attack. It’s not hard; I've meant many that do it often.
Now that the three major issues are addressed, let’s get into Class Specifics
Elesis
Knight - First of all, a full combo is never the way to go. Z Z Z Z Z or Z Z Z Z up Z aren't what you should be spamming. You was to cut your combo short with Z Z Z Z and as soon as the second hit of the thrust hits, repeat. This will lead to an infinite combo and a quicker death of monsters. This only builds your mp faster because you don't have to wait for the monster to get up. This also helps people stray away from mindless button mashing. However, full combos aren't useless. If a monster is near a ledge, or in a poison mist, it's fine to use a full combo to knock them off the ledge or out of the mist.
Mega Slash - As your first bar, it is much more useful then most others. Many things can be done with Mega slash to make it pretty powerful. First of all, it has a very long invincible frame. It is very easy to survive attacks and unavoidable situations with it. Mega Slash can also be cancelled into another mega slash or a Sonic Wave. If you don't know what a cancel is, play more fighting games...>.> But seriously, it just means that you cancel out the end of one move to do another right away. In Mega Slash's case, after using it, hold the attack button again and charge. This was, before the do the overhead slash, you let go and do another special right away while the monster is still staggering. It is possible to do a Mega Slash to Sonic Wave cancel, Mega Slash X3 cancel, Mega Slash X2 to Circle Blade cancel, and Mega Slash to Magnum Break cancel. Cancel Mega Slash to Sonic Wave or Magnum Break is a great alternative to Air Spiral.
Sonic Wave - An excellent move for dealing with groups. It is useful and has range. Not only that, but it can be cancel into from Mega Slash and Circle Blade. If used after Circle Blade, it will count as an aerial and do double damage, which is pretty good. The problem is that it is harder to time. After using Sonic Blade, it is very easy to follow up with a normal combo.
Air Spiral - A very strong but inaccurate move if you use it wrong. Air Spiral, like the name says, is suppose to be used on things in the air or above you. Sure, it'll hit something right in front of you, but it is not worth it when you can just Mega Slash cancel. It is best to only ever use this move if you can get something above you. Otherwise, your mp is better used on a cancel combo.
Circle Blade - This is a 1 bar special and the best way for Elesis to start a juggle by herself. It can cancel, like Mega Slash, but not as good. Circle Blade’s true use is just to launch things up for aerial attacks. As a spamming move or even an avoiding more, Mega Slash does a much better job. So like Air Spiral, this is very situational.
Magnum Break - A nice and strong skill that can build your combo pretty fast. The problem is that it fails in comparisons to sonic for two main reasons. It knocks the monster down, ending your combo and it can only cancel into your 1 bar special, both of which knock the monster down. This leave Magnum Break a finishing move and not a combo move. Remember that and use it wisely.
Storm Blade - An excellent and very powerful move. I've broken 1k damage with the final hit and the only other special I've see do that is Dive Bombing. The roll in the beginning of the special can actually move you forward a bit. Do it while dashing and you will lunge forward while spinning until you hit a monster. The final hit of the roll can slide monster back a lot and hit the monster is lucky enough, the final hit could miss. This means that this is a horrible move to use near ledges or jumpy scouts. However, the final hit is incredibly powerful and it launches the monster into the air pretty high, even heavy monsters. It's an excellent juggle setup for your teammates and an excellent finishing more for bosses.
Extra Notes: Knights are tanks not a damage dealers. Don't expect to do a lot of crazy damage like mages and expect to take a lot of hits. That's your job. Keep monsters away from your mages and archers and distracting bosses. Shadow stepping is your friend. Dashing around makes moving around very easy. Until Lass comes out, Knight Elesis is the fastest and most maneuverable character. Use it to your advantage. Also, pressing up for your alternate combo makes your character go into the air, but she still counts as being on the ground. So when the game says to jump and you do the alternate combo, you'll still get hit.
Spear Maiden - With a sacrifice of speed and power, the Spear Maiden gain range and versatility. Losing air dash turns some off to spears but they are useful in a very different way. Their range and multi-hit attacks make comboing very easy and safe. It can be done from a safe difference and stopping a combo with a jump is easier and doesn't lead to an aerial combo by mistake. Because spears hit for so long and can critical/double attack into a juggle, doing full combos are fine. But make sure you don't knock down the monster before you juggle it. Dash attack spamming is okay when you are killing your own monster, but don't rush into some one else's monster and dash attack spam them. It'll piss of the player and make things take longer. Comboing up to the spinning spear move and then stopping is fine so that you don't ruin your teammate’s moves.
Ground Break - Not that great of a special, but enough to be a good 1 bar move. It lacks the invincible frames to be used for evading and is not a close range move. In fact, using the move at close range is just like missing completely. It is not worth it. When using it, stand the distance away from the monster so that the tip of your spear when attack just barely hits a monster. Doing it like this, you'll get the full amount of hits and damage from the special.
Tornado Swing - A 2 bar special that is good, but could have been better. It hits both in front and behind you and knocks monsters down. The problem is that for a class with so many multi-hit attacks, Tornado Swing, a move that looks like it hits a lot, only hits a few times. It has been gimped out of what could have been an excellent special, but is still useful. It is another situational special for when you are surrounded.
Dragon Slash - A very powerful and decent 3 bar. It moves across the stage horizontally and infinitely. Not only that, but it is very powerful. This makes it a decent move, but extremely powerful when set up correct. The best time to use this move is at the edge of a stage and when move of the monster are on your horizontal level.
Leap Attack - A good alterative to Ground Break and has more uses. It is easier to hit correctly with and is a launcher for juggles. It is in all ways better than Ground Break, but sadly, it is a cash skill.
Extra Note: Abuse your range, that's why you have a spear. You are still a tank, be a tank. The spinning spear part of the combo can miss if you are too close. So always have range. Spears are for range, I can't stress that enough.
Lire
Archer - One of the biggest problems with archers is that they knock things down way too often. Most archers just stand in one place, aim, and fire off a full combo with their double attack. This can be really annoying when teammates are busy hacking away and their combo is ruined by a stray knockdown arrow. There's an easy solution, shoot four arrows. That means stop BUTTON MASHING!!! Shooting arrows isn’t that hard and shooting four isn't either. I've seen good archers and they don't stand and shot. The trick is being in the air. Jump and fire to pummel the monster with arrows and kicks. An easy setup is to fire four arrows, dash toward the monster, jump fire in air, jump again and kick. Great combo with no knock down annoyance. It may seem like a lot but it's not hard.
Big Shot - A decent 1 bar that you can aim with. The best thins about this special is that you can aim it. It gives the special as much accuracy as your normal shots. The can also be chained together for multiple big shits.
Arrow Rain - A very good move that most people have learned the secret to. The power of the move isn't the rain but the upward shots. The launch anything very high into the air, even heavy bosses.
Shooting Star - A powerful 3 bar that hits 270 degrees around yourself. All the arrows that don't hit circle around and come back to try and hit again. It is very accurate and very strong. Use it on bosses or high hp monsters.
Attack Swing - A very good special is you know how to use it. It has a small hop forward and it is weak, but is a launchers move. But when chained with Arrow Rain, it can do some pretty massive damage. Right at the last hit of Attack Swing, using Arrow Rain, knocking them up further into the air. This can be used instead of Shoot Star, but it's up to the user.
Flame Arrow - Essentially a strong Big Shot. It can also be aimed and it explodes for massive damage when it hits.
Extra Note: Archers have are excellent jugglers but they have no launching moves, aside from Attack Swing. I'm not much of an archer user, so I can’t know all the tricks, but I can give a few tips. Otto shot is easiest with archer. YES Elesis can do it too, but with the archer it is easier and actually useful. When dealing with arrow defense monster, shoot them in the back as the defense is only for the front.
(To be Finished Later, Comments and Additions Welcome)
lilneko:Archer - One of the biggest problems with archers is that they knock things down way too often. Most archers just stand in one place, aim, and fire off a full combo with their double attack. This can be really annoying when teammates are busy hacking away and their combo is ruined by a stray knockdown arrow. There's an easy solution, shoot four arrows. That means stop BUTTON MASHING!!! Shooting arrows isn’t that hard and shooting four isn't either. I've seen good archers and they don't stand and shot. The trick is being in the air. Jump and fire to pummel the monster with arrows and kicks. An easy setup is to fire four arrows, dash toward the monster, jump fire in air, jump again and kick. Great combo with no knock down annoyance. It may seem like a lot but it's not hard.
Nice guide. I used or knew of most of the tricks, but it was nice to be able to see the words in front of me so I could double-check myself. Thanks for taking the time to post it all. :D
By the way, you said that people are "noobs" if they can't tell if a person is charging. Well, I can't. I know that when my character charges she has these lines going inwards, but I don't see it occur at all on the other players' characters. With no visible indication of a charge to guide me, how am I supposed to know when an Elisis player is going to use a charge attack after the forth hit of a combo or not? (I'm not a mind reader you know.. :P) I would like it if you added into your guide how to tell when a player is charging. Is there something I'm missing?
This is a button mashing game, therefor you will button mash to your heart's content. Telling someone not to mash buttons in a button masher is like telling someone not to cut their enemy open as much as they can. Almost nobody uses an infinite combo, therefor almost nobody will care if you're trying to (it's pointless pointless POINTLESS). In this entire thread you're basically telling half of the economy that they're playing their characters the wrong way. It might be understandable about the 4 hits for an infinite combo at times, but monsters don't come up THAT SLOWLY (unless they're, say, Skeletons or Orcs, but there's not many more that come up slowly).
In this type of game, you cannot in any way make a difference between who's the damage dealer, who's the tank, and who's the runner. While their stats say otherwise, the skill of the player says just that. Elesis is a damage dealer with a little more defense. Arme is a bigger damage dealer but with a little less defense, but hey, she has her own defense in skills (she can dodge through monsters, use the Saver spell, etc). Lire is a ranged damage dealer, and her defense is in her double jump. You don't need a knight to protect you from every single monster. You're plenty capable, if not more capable then Elesis, at protecting yourself as a mage or archer. Knockdowns CAN be a pain, but what else is Arme supposed to do when something is close to her? Dash away and do a little damage with firebolt or stack up the damage with Earthwave, comboing it with a firebolt or jump attack? If you can't dodge a coming up attack in any instance, you're highly pathetic. They're the easiest thing to dodge for any character, no matter what the circumstance is.
I'd also like to point out, spamming is the HEART of this game. I'm utterly surprised if you can actually think about every single move you make. If you can, you're one of...what number was it...1% of the gaming community that can do that. Also, you'll get a pretty bad end score if you never use a double or aerial attack (well it's not as bad as before because of the timer) unless the monster is near death. It's pretty much one of the only ways a Lire can get 5 stars without using back attacks on everything. Lire isn't made for close range, you shouldn't play her like a close range attacker.
This is Sortie, writing out of frustration to your writing out of frustration. As I cannot think of anything else to say, I shall leave it at that.
Credits to Stryed for the userbar.
Thank you all for your input, I'll add the helpful tidbits when I get out of my lazy fit and finish this.
To KirbyCode: While 1 bar specials are harder to spot, it's easy to tell when some one his charging when they are standing near a monster doing nothing, or they are not attack and moving toward a group without attacking. Being able to tell when some one is about to use a special isn’t all that hard. If an archer is about to use Arrow rain, they will run under something. If a Knight is about to use Air Spiral, they will run under something as well. All it takes is a little observation and you'll be about to tell 90% of the time.
To NicolasVerdi: It's not so much that it is an unbreakable infinite combo, but a better alternative than knocking them down. In most games with or 2 button combos, stopping short will always like you start up again quickly as oppose to doing a full combo. There is nothing wrong with it and it is not like if it unstoppable. It is just a better way of playing IMO.
To Transition: While you may think this is a button mashing game, it isn't. You can play however you feel like it when you solo, but as a team and with others around, it is better to work together as a team. Randomly button mashing doesn’t not achieve that and actually makes people annoying each other. Sure, the game is skilled based; the roles of a player don't change. Elesis has more defense for a reason. She has to take hits, she's a melee fighter. Lire and Arme have longer range and so they don't need their defense and focus on power and evasion. It's not to say that they can't fulfill the roles of another, but it is true that they have their roles. You ask what Arme is suppose to do when things are close? You get out of the way. You have teammates for a reason, use them. I can understand if you are soloing. Do whatever you want then, but as a team, play like a team. I'd also like to add that not all attacks are avoidable. Tyr dashing away or jumping away after doing a magic circle with Arme and see how well you dodge something.
As for knocking things down, you don’t seem to understand how annoying it is. Let me paint a picture. If you are sitting there, attacking a monster and tearing it up just fine, you are happy. But then some random teammate, runs over, knocks it down and then run to another monster because they don't feel like waiting for it to get up, it'll piss you off. Spamming dash attack doesn't kill monsters and it makes things take longer. Sure, knocking it down once or twice, fine, but every 2 seconds is extremely annoying.
As for Spamming, come on now...it gets you nowhere. Spamming earth wave instead of actually timing it will get you killed and make you waste a lot of time. I follow my rules and I still get plenty of 5 stars. Why? Because I have played with a good team that doesn't spam or button mash. We think about what we do when we do it and it is a lot more efficient. The two scores are Power and Control. Power is made up of critical attacks, double attacks, and specials. As a play, I use my specials often, unless I'm fighting a boss. I only critical or double when I need to knock something off a ledge or knock down combo breaking enemies, like orcs. Control is based on back attacks and aerial attacks. I rarely ever attack a monster's front. In fact, I never do it unless I have to. (i.e. Partusay, Basilisk) Aerials I only do to help archers and mages juggle. And yet even like this and without spamming or button mashing I get 100s in both. So I don't see how playing recklessly is better than playing with some actual thought.
A lot of players put thought behind their actions. You can't juggle kill a boss' full health by button mashing. You can kill a boss without losing a life or even taking damage without thinking about what you do. You can’t chain specials as a team by spamming. Having everyone do a special at once and only one hitting isn’t as cool if using storm blade to launch a boss, Kanavan strike to keep him in the air, Dive Bombing to stack damage and finishing it with rune spiral. (Most bad ass Kamiki pwnage I've even done in my life...>.>)
Should a bit of this is out of frustration, but it helps and it works. I know it does because after I wrote this and talked about it online, I've seen an improvement in the general amount of players. And I also know I'm not the only one and that there are many of us that agree with what I have written.
Unfortunately, I think we have different views as to what button mashing and spamming actually is. For me, button mashing is pressing a button more than it actually needs to be pressed (which most people need to do in this game since it's very hard to tell the right time to press the button again). The mashing can be controlled by many, but it's also uncontrollable to many more, therefor making it a button masher.
Yes, when it comes to that specific example of a knockdown, it's very annoying, I'll agree with that. I think the game is a bit too fast paced and too centered around pvp for most people to even try or care. From what you say, I believe that you have a specific team that you always go through dungeons with, and if I'm right, then it's almost impossible to get this type of cooperation from some random team like I usually get into. Also, with the magic circle, you can just do a critical attack at the right time to gracefully glide past the attack. If it's an Anmon Guard come-up attack, then you can use Earthwave at the right time to dodge it.
Spamming is not always just randomly using an attack over and over again, it's doing many of the same attacks in a fast paced succession. It can be a tactical spam, where you do put thought behind your spam, or it can be reckless spam, where you just do things over and over again without thinking. That 1% of people I was talking about is a group of people who do not button mash (in my description) and are using tactical spam, since a very small population of people can do both.
If you can do back attacks well, then go ahead and never do the critical/double attack since it doesn't matter. I just find it slower to get through if you're not too great at winding up a good back attack, therefor the double attack works perfectly for those like me. I don't find archer knockdowns in teams that bad, since I usually just let them do their thing while I go on to fight another monster and possibly attack the one the archer is attacking when it gets up until they do the double attack again.
As for an improvement...players usually get the common sense to not do these annoying things by level 27+. Not saying that this thread didn't cause any changes, but enough complaining while in a dungeon can work wonders...
While that is button mashing, it is controlled and you can still stop yourself before the last hit and that is understandable.
Yes the game is fast paced, but it is slowed down when you have to wait for the monster to get back up after some one keeps knocking it down. As for the game being centered on PVP, most skilled based games are like that. But this is a dungeon crawling guide, not PVP. This for improvement in dungeons, PVP shouldn't be mentioned at all. I party with random people most of the time. Rarely do I party with people I like to party with because they are doing something else in game. Most of my parties are with other random people and I've seen very good ones and very bad ones. And as you said, you let them do their thing. You aren't knocking down the monsters they are fighting and annoying them. You are staying out of their way. But when you annoying your team, that is when knockdowns become bothersome, like I said before.
There is no such thing as tactical spamming. Being around to do something without thinking about it, even if it is over and over again is just learning something until it becomes second nature. Spamming is doing something annoying over and over again.
You are allowed to play however you want. If that works for you, then it works for you. But I'm saying from experience that it will annoy everyone else. The guide is meant to help people improve. If you are happy with the way you play, then play that way. But I feel my guide speaks on behave of many other players that are annoyed by the same things I am.
As for improvement for player 27+, I still see people doing the same annoying things
Like I said, we have different views on the meanings of these words :P. The reason I added PVP into this is because since the game is centered around pvp, most people will try to play in a dungeon like they would in pvp, which is probably causing most of that problem in the first place. I'm only showing my points to you because that is the point of your common player. I never said that the guide affected me in any way, I just wanted to show you that the common player is probably not going to even bother trying these tactics since it basically says to stop almost everything they do in a dungeon.
This is Sortie, leaving this thread for the sake of my own time.