Bam alleal wins gg
and I agree with you :/ Some narbs will just fail completely if STs was taken away
If I played him, I don't think he'd win quite as easily as he thinks he would. The cash skills may not play into his perfectly little simulation game he keeps trying to pull form, but they're not bad skills at all. I don't claim to be the world's best Lass player, and I never have, but I win enough, and I'm very familiar with my character.
Heck, if I wanted to use Kagemusha, I'd have a pretty decent advantage right there. It's not so great against everyone, but works wonders against other melee. You'd have to grab me without any attack being used to stun me, because hitting me would cause me to teleport away from you automatically.
You're the newbie if you really think there is only one way to do things. The skill trees were created for the exact purpose of changing that. It sounds to me like you're living in the past. The trees were made with so many various skills and options so we could make our own setups which we work well with, and are comfortable with, and with so many options you cannot possibly say there is one single, right way and be correct.
Aleall: What does it take to make people realize that you -cannot- be good with just the ST. The ST is supposed to add to what should already be there. You still need to step with Elesis, without speed her specials and dash attacks are obsolete. Meh, while this is the 'You need to abuse a movement bug' to be any good with Elesis, and she's useless otherwise, the point stands in this context. Lire is an exception, you don't really need to know anything about Lire to play ST well... Agreed. Lire is point, shoot, run, Big Shot, Grab, kill. You still need to learn to use Arme's dashes. It's made a lot easier by the ST, but it's not all done for you I don't agree with this as much. Arme was a pain to damage as it was for Melee, due to Firebolt+Invun+Lag. Arme can do perfectly well without dashing much, but the things like the boosted speed dropping dash are helpful. Earth Wave does all your Melee stopping needs, and Armes are starting to realise this. You still need to learn to grab and delay with Lass. You -cannot- replace Lass' one bar and expect to become a good thief, You need to learn to grab with everyone. I'd say it's more 'flinch' with Lass, than 'Delay'. Most Theifs just spam Wild Throw/Double Kunai the whole game and grab anyone who gets close. Most Theifs can grab. You still need to learn wolf on Ryan. Wolf is still Ryan's best attribute, still one of the best pvpers in the game. Ryan works without Wolf, both with and without Skill Tree (Air Dash helps a ton). In fact, most Ryans do not use Wolf, because they are often kicked for it. Ronan still sucks even with the ST Netreeve will buff it. It's Ronan.
What does it take to make people realize that you -cannot- be good with just the ST. The ST is supposed to add to what should already be there.
You still need to step with Elesis, without speed her specials and dash attacks are obsolete.
Meh, while this is the 'You need to abuse a movement bug' to be any good with Elesis, and she's useless otherwise, the point stands in this context.
Lire is an exception, you don't really need to know anything about Lire to play ST well...
Agreed. Lire is point, shoot, run, Big Shot, Grab, kill.
You still need to learn to use Arme's dashes. It's made a lot easier by the ST, but it's not all done for you
I don't agree with this as much. Arme was a pain to damage as it was for Melee, due to Firebolt+Invun+Lag. Arme can do perfectly well without dashing much, but the things like the boosted speed dropping dash are helpful. Earth Wave does all your Melee stopping needs, and Armes are starting to realise this.
You still need to learn to grab and delay with Lass. You -cannot- replace Lass' one bar and expect to become a good thief,
You need to learn to grab with everyone. I'd say it's more 'flinch' with Lass, than 'Delay'. Most Theifs just spam Wild Throw/Double Kunai the whole game and grab anyone who gets close. Most Theifs can grab.
You still need to learn wolf on Ryan. Wolf is still Ryan's best attribute, still one of the best pvpers in the game.
Ryan works without Wolf, both with and without Skill Tree (Air Dash helps a ton). In fact, most Ryans do not use Wolf, because they are often kicked for it.
Ronan still sucks even with the ST
Netreeve will buff it. It's Ronan.
Now that that's out of the way. I agree with you.
People think: Skill Tree = Better!111!
Nope. They couldn't be more wrong. Just because something is Skill Tree, does not make it automatically superior. Elesis is a perfect case in point. Sonic Wave Lv 2, and Critical X Level 2 are FAR superior to their lv 3 version, in both speed, and damage, especially in dungeons. The amunt of people who use Elesis' Skill Tree combo in dungeons is stupid, considering Roll + Normal Combo makes you more or less untouchable until Xenia, where the foes get faster, while it actually deals more damage, quicker, than the knockdown-inducing Lv 2 Combo.
Arme is another example. Sattilite Bomb is trash. Ice Trap only really works in low stat matchs, because Reverse Gravity + Grab/StoneCurse/Hold Beam is far better, despite Ice Trap being capable of a OHKO in low stats, it's not easy to aim, and time, a split-second detonation, and if you mistime, that's 2 bars down the drain, either because you missed, or used the slow version.
Lire's Big Shot lv 2 beats Lv 3 anyday. Lv 3 is just Reflect/Berzerk Bait, and deals less damage usually, because of Arrow Defence, at least the Explosions of lv2 ensure some reasonable damage, and a flinch, which leads into a grab.
I disagree on Lire and Lass o3oI love Lire's tree simply for the skills nobody uses.They add so much functionality to her first job.Previously I'd loved Nova because it handles dealing with melee so well.I just adore the new evasions that they've given to her first job, it makes it so much more maneuverable.
Lass' is my favorite simply because I'm able to play him without being almost entirely reliant upon grabbing.Mind you it's still situationally brilliant, having specials that do considerably more damage and range as well as expandable melee the skill tree makes him shine as a fighter.+ kunai stuns are epix...
Aleall:Lire is an exception, you don't really need to know anything about Lire to play ST well...
Lol, this made my day.
Anyway, your views on thief are a matter of opinion. As somone that learned the basics on Elesis, and perfected basic tricks on Amy, I rely much more on my skills to be controllable during their duration, then whether or not I can grab after a skill has been performed, or one with massive delay.
That being the case, Round Stream lvl 3, Grinding Punisher, and Lass's Cash 1st bar, are much better for my play style. I can control if they go left or right, or if they go wide or short...and I like that.
Using thunderslash is all but useless to me, and the only Lass I've ever seen use it in a hax way is Yama. He used the delay off of it to grab you after the skill shot off rather then let the skill hit you. And unless your Lass is over 40, those grabs are going to do a lot less damage then the uh...spinnie left or right move. Crap, what the heck is it's name?
But, I don't play Lass much, at all really, and when I do, its DA, so I can't speak on behalf of thieves. That's just my opinion.
Still if you think its better, keep using it. You may be right. And if you are, more power to you for being the first to figure it out. Then you can go, haha I was right, nyahnyah~
Dragonrusher: Aleall: What does it take to make people realize that you -cannot- be good with just the ST. The ST is supposed to add to what should already be there. You still need to step with Elesis, without speed her specials and dash attacks are obsolete. Meh, while this is the 'You need to abuse a movement bug' to be any good with Elesis, and she's useless otherwise, the point stands in this context. Lire is an exception, you don't really need to know anything about Lire to play ST well... Agreed. Lire is point, shoot, run, Big Shot, Grab, kill. You still need to learn to use Arme's dashes. It's made a lot easier by the ST, but it's not all done for you I don't agree with this as much. Arme was a pain to damage as it was for Melee, due to Firebolt+Invun+Lag. Arme can do perfectly well without dashing much, but the things like the boosted speed dropping dash are helpful. Earth Wave does all your Melee stopping needs, and Armes are starting to realise this. You still need to learn to grab and delay with Lass. You -cannot- replace Lass' one bar and expect to become a good thief, You need to learn to grab with everyone. I'd say it's more 'flinch' with Lass, than 'Delay'. Most Theifs just spam Wild Throw/Double Kunai the whole game and grab anyone who gets close. Most Theifs can grab. You still need to learn wolf on Ryan. Wolf is still Ryan's best attribute, still one of the best pvpers in the game. Ryan works without Wolf, both with and without Skill Tree (Air Dash helps a ton). In fact, most Ryans do not use Wolf, because they are often kicked for it. Ronan still sucks even with the ST Netreeve will buff it. It's Ronan. Now that that's out of the way. I agree with you. People think: Skill Tree = Better!111! Nope. They couldn't be more wrong. Just because something is Skill Tree, does not make it automatically superior. Elesis is a perfect case in point. Sonic Wave Lv 2, and Critical X Level 2 are FAR superior to their lv 3 version, in both speed, and damage, especially in dungeons. The amunt of people who use Elesis' Skill Tree combo in dungeons is stupid, considering Roll + Normal Combo makes you more or less untouchable until Xenia, where the foes get faster, while it actually deals more damage, quicker, than the knockdown-inducing Lv 2 Combo. Arme is another example. Sattilite Bomb is trash. Ice Trap only really works in low stat matchs, because Reverse Gravity + Grab/StoneCurse/Hold Beam is far better, despite Ice Trap being capable of a OHKO in low stats, it's not easy to aim, and time, a split-second detonation, and if you mistime, that's 2 bars down the drain, either because you missed, or used the slow version. Lire's Big Shot lv 2 beats Lv 3 anyday. Lv 3 is just Reflect/Berzerk Bait, and deals less damage usually, because of Arrow Defence, at least the Explosions of lv2 ensure some reasonable damage, and a flinch, which leads into a grab.
Everything you mentioned there IS skill tree.
Mysiaca: Aleall:Lire is an exception, you don't really need to know anything about Lire to play ST well... Using thunderslash is all but useless to me, and the only Lass I've ever seen use it in a hax way is Yama. He used the delay off of it to grab you after the skill shot off rather then let the skill hit you. And unless your Lass is over 40, those grabs are going to do a lot less damage then the uh...spinnie left or right move. Crap, what the heck is it's name?
You missed alot of good thief players then cus yama was a joke at best in pvp, period.
#1 Baby Stepper.
Byfrod, it still proves the point, because said skill is higher in the Skill Tree. Sonic Wave lv 3 is higher than lv 2.
Elesis' basic combo, is not Skill Tree, it's been there forever.
Reverse Gravity + Stone Curse/Grab is not Skill Tree.
Big Shot + Grab is not Skill Tree, although lv 2 better at it, lv 1 is better than 3, because of Berzerk/Reflect baiting.
People think Skill Tree, particulay being higher up in it, is better. It's not. Quite often, the lv 3's can be worse than the lower levels.
Technically, everything is ST, except for grabs, because even the basic skills show up.
Why do you all reply when im late for work :(
I'll respond when im done
prolly 9 30ish pacific time
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAlleal
back
zamte: If I played him, I don't think he'd win quite as easily as he thinks he would. The cash skills may not play into his perfectly little simulation game he keeps trying to pull form, but they're not bad skills at all. I don't claim to be the world's best Lass player, and I never have, but I win enough, and I'm very familiar with my character. Unfortunately I think I would.I'm not referencing simulations, these things actually happened. most recent one was my 1v1 against savage, and I still have the replay. You seem to fight less skilled and intelligent people a lot. I'm saying that I counter, I delay, I grab, unlike most of the people you seem to fight. I'm saying your cash 1bar will not work like you want, because I can see what you're trying to do. I know when I should counter and when I should take the damage. And even if I do make a mistake and get caught in one of your 1bars, it'll only support my point that they're ineffective when I escape with minimal damage. Heck, if I wanted to use Kagemusha, I'd have a pretty decent advantage right there. It's not so great against everyone, but works wonders against other melee. You'd have to grab me without any attack being used to stun me, because hitting me would cause me to teleport away from you automatically. I'm assuming that's the hand sign one. So then I'll hit you, you'll teleport, I'll hit you again. It won't really matter if I don't. The point is you won't be hitting me, regardless of how much I hit you. You're the newbie if you really think there is only one way to do things. The skill trees were created for the exact purpose of changing that. It sounds to me like you're living in the past. The trees were made with so many various skills and options so we could make our own setups which we work well with, and are comfortable with, and with so many options you cannot possibly say there is one single, right way and be correct. There is only one way to do things -well-. You can call it anecdotal evidence if you want, I call it fact. My way has not been beat en by your way, or anyone else. So as I said, prove me wrong, show me a better way. Right off the bat I had you trying to prove that Wild Throw was better then Double Kunai in ANY situation, not a majority. Right off the bat I had you admitting that double kunai was overall better.
Unfortunately I think I would.I'm not referencing simulations, these things actually happened. most recent one was my 1v1 against savage, and I still have the replay. You seem to fight less skilled and intelligent people a lot. I'm saying that I counter, I delay, I grab, unlike most of the people you seem to fight. I'm saying your cash 1bar will not work like you want, because I can see what you're trying to do. I know when I should counter and when I should take the damage. And even if I do make a mistake and get caught in one of your 1bars, it'll only support my point that they're ineffective when I escape with minimal damage.
I'm assuming that's the hand sign one. So then I'll hit you, you'll teleport, I'll hit you again. It won't really matter if I don't. The point is you won't be hitting me, regardless of how much I hit you.
There is only one way to do things -well-. You can call it anecdotal evidence if you want, I call it fact. My way has not been beat en by your way, or anyone else. So as I said, prove me wrong, show me a better way. Right off the bat I had you trying to prove that Wild Throw was better then Double Kunai in ANY situation, not a majority. Right off the bat I had you admitting that double kunai was overall better.
Dragonrusher: Aleall: What does it take to make people realize that you -cannot- be good with just the ST. The ST is supposed to add to what should already be there. You still need to step with Elesis, without speed her specials and dash attacks are obsolete. Meh, while this is the 'You need to abuse a movement bug' to be any good with Elesis, and she's useless otherwise, the point stands in this context. It's not a bug. It's just an unintended use for dashes. Unless you count rocket step, which I think is a physics glitch. But as you said, teh point still stands. Elesis cannot be played truely well without it. Lire is an exception, you don't really need to know anything about Lire to play ST well... Agreed. Lire is point, shoot, run, Big Shot, Grab, kill. I hate lire You still need to learn to use Arme's dashes. It's made a lot easier by the ST, but it's not all done for you I don't agree with this as much. Arme was a pain to damage as it was for Melee, due to Firebolt+Invun+Lag. Arme can do perfectly well without dashing much, but the things like the boosted speed dropping dash are helpful. Earth Wave does all your Melee stopping needs, and Armes are starting to realise this. I wasn't really sure what one thing arme had that still needed to be learned to play her well, but I know it revolves around movement. Not a big arme player You still need to learn to grab and delay with Lass. You -cannot- replace Lass' one bar and expect to become a good thief, You need to learn to grab with everyone. I'd say it's more 'flinch' with Lass, than 'Delay'. Most Theifs just spam Wild Throw/Double Kunai the whole game and grab anyone who gets close. Most Theifs can grab. Oooooh but I'm not talking about just grabbing. I mean double grabs, triple grabs, quad grabs, delay grabs, catch grabs, air grabs(through platform), doubles off of air grabs, doubles off of ground paltforms. No, not just >z You still need to learn wolf on Ryan. Wolf is still Ryan's best attribute, still one of the best pvpers in the game. Ryan works without Wolf, both with and without Skill Tree (Air Dash helps a ton). In fact, most Ryans do not use Wolf, because they are often kicked for it. He's playable yes, but not well. You take the best druid ever and put him up against SM DA or Wolf and the Druid loses. Loses to SM due to smaller range and less speed, loses to DA because all it takes is one delay while the druid is standing on the ground(and invincible frames from shake allow them to get close enough), and wolf because of it's huge invincible time. Ronan still sucks even with the ST Netreeve will buff it. It's Ronan. ikr Now that that's out of the way. I agree with you. People think: Skill Tree = Better!111! Nope. They couldn't be more wrong. Just because something is Skill Tree, does not make it automatically superior. Elesis is a perfect case in point. Sonic Wave Lv 2, and Critical X Level 2 are FAR superior to their lv 3 version, in both speed, and damage, especially in dungeons. The amunt of people who use Elesis' Skill Tree combo in dungeons is stupid, considering Roll + Normal Combo makes you more or less untouchable until Xenia, where the foes get faster, while it actually deals more damage, quicker, than the knockdown-inducing Lv 2 Combo. Arme is another example. Sattilite Bomb is trash. Ice Trap only really works in low stat matchs, because Reverse Gravity + Grab/StoneCurse/Hold Beam is far better, despite Ice Trap being capable of a OHKO in low stats, it's not easy to aim, and time, a split-second detonation, and if you mistime, that's 2 bars down the drain, either because you missed, or used the slow version. Lire's Big Shot lv 2 beats Lv 3 anyday. Lv 3 is just Reflect/Berzerk Bait, and deals less damage usually, because of Arrow Defence, at least the Explosions of lv2 ensure some reasonable damage, and a flinch, which leads into a grab. I agree with the rest
Aleall: What does it take to make people realize that you -cannot- be good with just the ST. The ST is supposed to add to what should already be there. You still need to step with Elesis, without speed her specials and dash attacks are obsolete. Meh, while this is the 'You need to abuse a movement bug' to be any good with Elesis, and she's useless otherwise, the point stands in this context. It's not a bug. It's just an unintended use for dashes. Unless you count rocket step, which I think is a physics glitch. But as you said, teh point still stands. Elesis cannot be played truely well without it. Lire is an exception, you don't really need to know anything about Lire to play ST well... Agreed. Lire is point, shoot, run, Big Shot, Grab, kill. I hate lire You still need to learn to use Arme's dashes. It's made a lot easier by the ST, but it's not all done for you I don't agree with this as much. Arme was a pain to damage as it was for Melee, due to Firebolt+Invun+Lag. Arme can do perfectly well without dashing much, but the things like the boosted speed dropping dash are helpful. Earth Wave does all your Melee stopping needs, and Armes are starting to realise this. I wasn't really sure what one thing arme had that still needed to be learned to play her well, but I know it revolves around movement. Not a big arme player You still need to learn to grab and delay with Lass. You -cannot- replace Lass' one bar and expect to become a good thief, You need to learn to grab with everyone. I'd say it's more 'flinch' with Lass, than 'Delay'. Most Theifs just spam Wild Throw/Double Kunai the whole game and grab anyone who gets close. Most Theifs can grab. Oooooh but I'm not talking about just grabbing. I mean double grabs, triple grabs, quad grabs, delay grabs, catch grabs, air grabs(through platform), doubles off of air grabs, doubles off of ground paltforms. No, not just >z You still need to learn wolf on Ryan. Wolf is still Ryan's best attribute, still one of the best pvpers in the game. Ryan works without Wolf, both with and without Skill Tree (Air Dash helps a ton). In fact, most Ryans do not use Wolf, because they are often kicked for it. He's playable yes, but not well. You take the best druid ever and put him up against SM DA or Wolf and the Druid loses. Loses to SM due to smaller range and less speed, loses to DA because all it takes is one delay while the druid is standing on the ground(and invincible frames from shake allow them to get close enough), and wolf because of it's huge invincible time. Ronan still sucks even with the ST Netreeve will buff it. It's Ronan. ikr
It's not a bug. It's just an unintended use for dashes. Unless you count rocket step, which I think is a physics glitch. But as you said, teh point still stands. Elesis cannot be played truely well without it.
I hate lire
I wasn't really sure what one thing arme had that still needed to be learned to play her well, but I know it revolves around movement. Not a big arme player
Oooooh but I'm not talking about just grabbing. I mean double grabs, triple grabs, quad grabs, delay grabs, catch grabs, air grabs(through platform), doubles off of air grabs, doubles off of ground paltforms. No, not just >z
He's playable yes, but not well. You take the best druid ever and put him up against SM DA or Wolf and the Druid loses. Loses to SM due to smaller range and less speed, loses to DA because all it takes is one delay while the druid is standing on the ground(and invincible frames from shake allow them to get close enough), and wolf because of it's huge invincible time.
ikr
I agree with the rest
Eloric: I disagree on Lire and Lass o3oI love Lire's tree simply for the skills nobody uses.They add so much functionality to her first job. Like......jump zzzzzzzz Or the also popular aim zzzzzzzzzz Or another great one. z---- fire arrow Previously I'd loved Nova because it handles dealing with melee so well.I just adore the new evasions that they've given to her first job, it makes it so much more maneuverable. Lass' is my favorite simply because I'm able to play him without being almost entirely reliant upon grabbing. If you don't like being reliant on grabs why are you playing lass in the first place? Mind you it's still situationally brilliant, having specials that do considerably more damage and range as well as expandable melee the skill tree makes him shine as a fighter.+ kunai stuns are epix...
I disagree on Lire and Lass o3oI love Lire's tree simply for the skills nobody uses.They add so much functionality to her first job.
Like......jump zzzzzzzz
Or the also popular
aim zzzzzzzzzz
Or another great one.
z---- fire arrow
Previously I'd loved Nova because it handles dealing with melee so well.I just adore the new evasions that they've given to her first job, it makes it so much more maneuverable.
Lass' is my favorite simply because I'm able to play him without being almost entirely reliant upon grabbing.
If you don't like being reliant on grabs why are you playing lass in the first place?
Mind you it's still situationally brilliant, having specials that do considerably more damage and range as well as expandable melee the skill tree makes him shine as a fighter.+ kunai stuns are epix...
Mysiaca: Aleall:Lire is an exception, you don't really need to know anything about Lire to play ST well... Lol, this made my day. I hate lires. :( Anyway, your views on thief are a matter of opinion. As somone that learned the basics on Elesis, and perfected basic tricks on Amy, I rely much more on my skills to be controllable during their duration, then whether or not I can grab after a skill has been performed, or one with massive delay. It's an opinion I'm taking as fact until it can be disproved. If you're skill reliant and that's you're thing then cool. But I'm saying you cannot maximize potential with just skills. AR is the only truly mp reliant class I like to play, and it's all about manuevering opponents into positions for sniper shot chains.(I love how they can't be countered :]) That being the case, Round Stream lvl 3, Grinding Punisher, and Lass's Cash 1st bar, are much better for my play style. I can control if they go left or right, or if they go wide or short...and I like that. Using thunderslash is all but useless to me, and the only Lass I've ever seen use it in a hax way is Yama. He used the delay off of it to grab you after the skill shot off rather then let the skill hit you. And unless your Lass is over 40, those grabs are going to do a lot less damage then the uh...spinnie left or right move. Crap, what the heck is it's name? Only if the entire spinny thingy hits, which happens extremely rarely. But, I don't play Lass much, at all really, and when I do, its DA, so I can't speak on behalf of thieves. That's just my opinion. Still if you think its better, keep using it. You may be right. And if you are, more power to you for being the first to figure it out. Then you can go, haha I was right, nyahnyah~ But I'm not the first to figure it out. I'm one of the people who could play thief before the STs came, and didn't let ST override my playstyle. There are few people left who do it with pretty much anyone with ST.
I hate lires. :(
It's an opinion I'm taking as fact until it can be disproved.
If you're skill reliant and that's you're thing then cool. But I'm saying you cannot maximize potential with just skills. AR is the only truly mp reliant class I like to play, and it's all about manuevering opponents into positions for sniper shot chains.(I love how they can't be countered :])
Only if the entire spinny thingy hits, which happens extremely rarely.
But I'm not the first to figure it out. I'm one of the people who could play thief before the STs came, and didn't let ST override my playstyle. There are few people left who do it with pretty much anyone with ST.
you dont expect me to read all that do you?
xXEgoXx: you dont expect me to read all that do you?
agreed but it is funny when you see half of a page of an arguement from one person seems like one of those people who fight on youtube doesnt really matter or work :P
<-- this thread
<---- thx luther :D
QQ and tl;dr all around
/ends thread